Curse

mips · Jun 07, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So if you go AFK and come back, how do you check all the previous conversations that you missed? It would make conversations too difficult to track. It would be punishing the innocent to punish the rule breakers.

I think you misunderstood...

dont think he meant the one on the scrollbar,
he meant the one on your keyboard...
(the one that enables you to copy your previous statements)

Sir Skullcrasher · Jun 07, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Something tells me that even with Auction House release. We'll still see alot of spams on all the channels!

freekedoutfish · Jun 07, 2007, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

The system is fine as it is. Really, GW has been out for more than two years now and we've all put up with it. If you have a problem with it turn your chats off and sell your stuff here- it's that simple.

I refere you to my other thread called...

Why should we have to close the local chat to avoid spamming?

..ill let you find it if you want to read it. But it basically covers what it says. Why should we be expected to turn off the chat channels in capital cities just because other players want to abuse the chat channels and render it impossible to have a conversation?

I really cant stand and I refuse to accept that kind of attitude. Why should we have to just close our eyes, cover our ears and pretend like nothing is happening?

Thats unnacceptable. The problem wont go away by ignoring it. You have to face abuse head on and sort it out, or it wont go away.

MSecorsky · Jun 07, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

So if you go AFK and come back, how do you check all the previous conversations that you missed? It would make conversations too difficult to track. It would be punishing the innocent to punish the rule breakers.

No, no... not the scroll bar. The feature where if you're in the text area you can use the up and down arrows to repeat text you've already typed. That's what gets abused for spamming.

freekedoutfish · Jun 07, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by mips

I think you misunderstood...

dont think he meant the one on the scrollbar,
he meant the one on your keyboard...
(the one that enables you to copy your previous statements)

I personally use the copy and paste all the time when trying to form parties, and I dont want to scroll back through all my previous posts to say the same thing again.

There are times when you want to repost a LFG message alot in an outpost, but if you say something longwinded you dont want to have to retype it or hunt for it from previous posts.

Again it would be punishing the good players, to punish the abusive ones.

MSecorsky · Jun 07, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I personally use the copy and paste all the time when trying to form parties, and I dont want to scroll back through all my previous posts to say the same thing again.

There are times when you want to repost a LFG message alot in an outpost, but if you say something longwinded you dont want to have to retype it or hunt for it from previous posts.

Again it would be punishing the good players, to punish the abusive ones.

There's also the "P"arty search option available now which would get more usage, so that particular argument really doesn't hold water.

freekedoutfish · Jun 07, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

There's also the "P"arty search option available now which would get more usage, so that particular argument really doesn't hold water.

Does it get used?
Do people ever check it?

The unfortunate answer is no!

But what is wrong with using the all/local channel to find PUGs?. Thats one of its main purposes, so if I choose to use it to do so, there is nothing wrong with that. If people started using party search on mass, then so would I. But they dont. If removing copy and paste is going to have knock on effects on forming pugs using local chat, then it is a valid point.

Removing copy and paste isnt just going to affect trying to find pugs though. It will effect legit trading. I dont particularly want to retype out the same, long message over and over and over again ever time.

Not if im posting a message that says...

"<W.T.S> Elite tomes - elemental and Sin (10k), Gold weapons (10k each) - Green Necro weapon (15k) - wisp me"

...that being an example. I DONT want to have to type that out manually every single time! Removing the copy and paste, and the ability to display previously entered text is going to affect the legit players in a negative way.

Plus it wont help!

I expect most of these spammers are very fast touch-typers who can wip out messages in seconds anyway. Most of the suggestions people make to remove spam can all be got around.

Adding restrictions, or removing functionality wont help. Changing the programme to add filters or other automated systems wont help. Any new system can be got around.

We need real people to moderate the players in cities. Not 24/7, but we need mod to make visible apearances occassionally in cities with MOD icons above them, so people will go "ah c**p, stop spamming or ill get banned"!

You cant escape a real person. You cant get around a real person. If your caught by a mod, its the end of the path. Your banned.

If you get filtered, or blocked, or restricted by the programme automatically. Then most people will just think "right, how can I get around that".

MSecorsky · Jun 07, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

If the "P" screen were easier to use than regurgi-spamming the same LFG line over and over than yes, it would get used. Preventing the spam feature of the up/down arrows won't take away your ability to use the local chat for finding groups anyhow, and you might become a better typer in the process.

If you're a legit trader, you should be trying to sell in local chat anyhow, so who cares if you can't do it quickly there anymore.

People will survive if the up/down regurgitation of lines goes away, and spam will be greatly reduced. The sun will be brighter, the Charr a little less stinky and mesmers will finally get the love they deserve.

Bryant Again · Jun 07, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

If the "P" screen were easier to use than regurgi-spamming the same LFG line over and over than yes, it would get used. Preventing the spam feature of the up/down arrows won't take away your ability to use the local chat for finding groups anyhow, and you might become a better typer in the process.

I actually find it much more easier to use then spamming my messages over and over again. How is it harder?

MSecorsky · Jun 07, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I actually find it much more easier to use then spamming my messages over and over again. How is it harder?

I agree, the only problem is the limited size of the area to type in. If they lengthen that it would be a thing of beauty. With more space it would be a much more effective trading tool as well.

Miral · Jun 07, 2007, 11:20 PM // 23:20

the point is to encourage the ALL chat spammers to do things that have a place, in that place. you can still spam trade channel all you want for selling stuff, and the party search function will start getting used once people can't spam local with lfg messages. really i dont know why people don't use party search for parties as is, its useful, passive, unobtrusive, and goes to all districts... the only fix it needs to maximize potential is to show all of the party members when you mouse over it...

freekedoutfish · Jun 08, 2007, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

If the "P" screen were easier to use than regurgi-spamming the same LFG line over and over than yes, it would get used. Preventing the spam feature of the up/down arrows won't take away your ability to use the local chat for finding groups anyhow, and you might become a better typer in the process.

If you're a legit trader, you should be trying to sell in local chat anyhow, so who cares if you can't do it quickly there anymore.

People will survive if the up/down regurgitation of lines goes away, and spam will be greatly reduced. The sun will be brighter, the Charr a little less stinky and mesmers will finally get the love they deserve.

You dont seem to understand....

...how would this stop spamming?

Just because people cant re-select previously sent messages, isnt going to stop them simply re-typing the same message over and over again.

It just means they cant post as fast and you end up with disjointed spams. But there not suddenly going to think "oh damn, I cant re-select my previous comments anymore... well thats my spamming days over"! They will just re-type them out in short text.

And actually I am a good typer, I can touch type quite easily (if not badly spelling), but I do that 24/7 at work, behind a desk for 8 hours writing code or helping fix problems.

I dont want to spend 8 hours at work typing continually only to come home to have to sit there re-typing stuff over and over again. Thats one reason I dont really enjoy trying to sell items, because you spend an hour in an outpost just retyping the same message over and over and over again.

Lets say im trying to find a hard mode team, and because virtually no one is HMing I cant. I go into one outpost and type "Nuker LFG hard mode" and no one replies. I then want to move onto the next town or district and quickly re-select what I just wrote, so I can see if anyone responds. If they dont I move onto the next one, and the next one and the next.

I dont want to have to re-type a LFG message every single time.

1) This wouldnt stop spamming.
2) As ive said, its removing a perfectly decent piece of funcationality to try and stop spamming, but all it does it punishes the people who need it and use it correctly.
3) I bet once it was removed, you would soon notice after just a few weeks and wish it was back.

Again.... it doesnt matter what filters, or funcationality you add or remove, or whether we add an auction house. Spammers will always get around changes you make to the programme, and they will always want to spam to get your attention.

The only thing that will stop them, which they cant avoid, cant get around, and get ignore, is if their caught doing it. If a MOD is in a city when they do it!

But because Anet isnt going to invest money and time in paying MODS to stand around in cities to police/parent us, then nothing will change.

Unless the attitude of players changes, spamming wont go away. Its not a problem with the software, its a problem with the mentality of the players and how they use the software.

Dont blame the software because the users abuse it!

RhanoctJocosa · Jun 08, 2007, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I refere you to my other thread called...

Why should we have to close the local chat to avoid spamming?

..ill let you find it if you want to read it. But it basically covers what it says. Why should we be expected to turn off the chat channels in capital cities just because other players want to abuse the chat channels and render it impossible to have a conversation?

I really cant stand and I refuse to accept that kind of attitude. Why should we have to just close our eyes, cover our ears and pretend like nothing is happening?

Thats unnacceptable. The problem wont go away by ignoring it. You have to face abuse head on and sort it out, or it wont go away.

If you want to have a conversation you can go into a less populated district, do it in PM or invite them (if it's a party) to your guild hall. The main commerical towns (LA, KJoS, DF, etc) are supposed to be hectic- full of commotion (spammers) and have been that way since the beginning. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't approve of idiots spamming senseless, non-commercial messages in any chat but there's nothing you can really do about that- ANet can't punish/penalise you for being a silly kid.

So yeah, in short, it's been happening since the beginning and there is no reason to change anything. -_-V

freekedoutfish · Jun 08, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

If you want to have a conversation you can go into a less populated district, do it in PM or invite them (if it's a party) to your guild hall. The main commerical towns (LA, KJoS, DF, etc) are supposed to be hectic- full of commotion (spammers) and have been that way since the beginning. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't approve of idiots spamming senseless, non-commercial messages in any chat but there's nothing you can really do about that- ANet can't punish/penalise you for being a silly kid.

So yeah, in short, it's been happening since the beginning and there is no reason to change anything. -_-V

I agree the major cities are meant to be hubs of activity, and the local chat is bound to be a filled with ALOT of messages which would render it hard to read anyway.

I have been around almost since the start too, and yes its always been hard to have a conversation in major cities. But that was originally due to (as you say) mindless conversations, teenage arguements, people insulting each other, party formations, etc etc etc.

But atleast they were conversations. Atleast people were able to talk to one another.

Now the local chat is nothing more then spammed trade messages. Its impossible to have an argument, or a conversation or listen to the teenagers talking about goths and hippies and which one is cooler.

Its 95% trade spamming in the local chat!

I would rather hark back to the days when atleast you could argue in the local chat and have a healthy debate.

But Im just passionate about this idea that we shouldnt be expected to stand-down to abusive behaviour and ignore it simply because nothing can be done (or is being done).

Especially not when effective solutions exist. I can think of 2 very obvious ones..

1) Anet pays MODs to occassionally police the capital cities and check no ones abusing the system.

2) (More realistic) Anet increases the ignore list into the 100s or makes it infinite. As I mention in a reply above, the existing ignore list isnt a deterant because spammers and abusive players know it has a small limit and they eventually have to be removed. A limitless ignore list is a major deterant.

Imagine walking into LA and ignoring every person who is sending trade messages or spamming the Local chat! Filtering it down to the those who are actually talking.

If spammers knew you can do that, they would think twice about annoying you to the degree you ignroe them.

Miral · Jun 08, 2007, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You dont seem to understand....

...how would this stop spamming?

Just because people cant re-select previously sent messages, isnt going to stop them simply re-typing the same message over and over again.

It just means they cant post as fast and you end up with disjointed spams. But there not suddenly going to think "oh damn, I cant re-select my previous comments anymore... well thats my spamming days over"! They will just re-type them out in short text.

the proposal is to remove the functionality in ALL chat. spammers would then move over to trade channel where the functions still work, which is the intended effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

And actually I am a good typer, I can touch type quite easily (if not badly spelling), but I do that 24/7 at work, behind a desk for 8 hours writing code or helping fix problems.

I dont want to spend 8 hours at work typing continually only to come home to have to sit there re-typing stuff over and over again. Thats one reason I dont really enjoy trying to sell items, because you spend an hour in an outpost just retyping the same message over and over and over again.

as I stated above, trade chat would remain unaffected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Lets say im trying to find a hard mode team, and because virtually no one is HMing I cant. I go into one outpost and type "Nuker LFG hard mode" and no one replies. I then want to move onto the next town or district and quickly re-select what I just wrote, so I can see if anyone responds. If they dont I move onto the next one, and the next one and the next.

I dont want to have to re-type a LFG message every single time.

thats what the party search was put in for. with no ALL chat spamming, it should see more use. though a couple improvements should be made to it (let you save a message and reselect it later, and let you see full contents of groups)... And hey, it automatically sets a message for if you are currently set in hardmode or not!

Patrick Smit · Jun 08, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

the proposal is to remove the functionality in ALL chat. spammers would then move over to trade channel where the functions still work, which is the intended effect.
...

Spammers should be banned, I dont like to see two, three or even more times the same message, it also interferes with the sales of other people that behave according EULA. Just ban spammers and they will learn to behave. PLEASE and all kind of soft psychological stuff doesnt work. Especially on the internet where one can behave irresponsable without any ill effect. Make their behavior count, and they WILL adjust.

freekedoutfish · Jun 08, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

the proposal is to remove the functionality in ALL chat. spammers would then move over to trade channel where the functions still work, which is the intended effect.

Sorry, but to me, that just sounds like your punishing the non-traders and non-spammers who are doing nothing wrong, while letting spammers and traders have everything.

Your punishing those who use the local chat in an acceptable way by removing funcationality.

While those who spam and use the trade channel get full functionality.

How is that far? and how is that going to stop spammers or traders using the local chat? It wont.

The end result is you're restricting the way in which well behaved players can play the game, but not actually stopping the spammers or traders from using the local chat.

Removing the ability to scroll back and forth in local chat will not detere traders or spammers people from using it. They will always want to use the most widely watched channel to sell things.

Its all or nothing!

While I agree it would be good for everyone to use the party search option, you cant force people to use it if they dont want to. There is nothing wrong with using the local chat to find PUGs. Thats why it exists, or one of the reasons why.

Again your trying to put restrictions in place which punish the well behaved player. Your forcing them into using a system their either not ready for, or feel is effective.

You have to consider the all round effect of putting filters and restrictions in. If its going to have a negative effect on the players who behave themselves, then its unnacceptable.

Especially when it has no real knock-on effect on the abusive players. Which your idea doesnt because they will get around it.

I appreciate your idea is trying to help and I give you credit for that. But please consider how your going to effect the 80% off decent players by putting restrictions in to punish the 20% that abuse the system.

You either put restrictions in that effects everyone equally, or you dont do anything at all!

Sir Green Aluminum · Jun 08, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

I don't see why everyone is getting so upset about wts/wtb spam. It only happens in d1 of main non mission cities right? What are people doing there anyways that can't be done in d2? RPing? Or are these people mad that they can't sell anything? I don't find the spam a problem in those towns, I was able to buy what I wanted and get out in less than 5 mins, sellers actually read through your shouts if your buying something. It's like if you don't want to get the crap beaten out of you don't hang out in street gang territory if that's what chat spam is to your eyes. I have a feeling some of the people posting here are those that shout shut the F up to everyone in town.
If you want to RP or make random comments there's random arenas d1 where there's always someone cybering or something, it's like RP and random comment spam there!!!

freekedoutfish · Jun 08, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Green Aluminum

I don't see why everyone is getting so upset about wts/wtb spam. It only happens in d1 of main non mission cities right? What are people doing there anyways that can't be done in d2? RPing? Or are these people mad that they can't sell anything? I don't find the spam a problem in those towns, I was able to buy what I wanted and get out in less than 5 mins, sellers actually read through your shouts if your buying something. It's like if you don't want to get the crap beaten out of you don't hang out in street gang territory if that's what chat spam is to your eyes. I have a feeling some of the people posting here are those that shout shut the F up to everyone in town.
If you want to RP or make random comments there's random arenas d1 where there's always someone cybering or something, it's like RP and random comment spam there!!!

The key bit you said there was...

"I don't find the spam a problem in those towns, I was able to buy what I wanted and get out in less than 5 mins, sellers actually read through your shouts if your buying something. "

...so your a buyer and a seller? Obviously your not going to mind the spamming!

I'm talking from the perspective of players who want to be able to have conversations with other players in a capital city. Players who arent interested in trading at all.

Your analagy about gangs!

What if that gang started hanging out in your street, or your local pub! Places that you go every day, and every night.

Would you stop leaving your house, or go drink in a different pub to avoid them? I somehow doubt it.

What if your in a capital city, and it only has one district and that district is being spammed and its impossible to have a conversation at all. Are we expected to just leave that capital city and go elsewhere?

By your reasoning we are!

How is at acceptable? That is not what I call getting your money worth from a game, if your actually being terrorised and preasured into leaving certain outposts or districts because of abusive players and spammers.

Why should we be pressure or terrorised into leaving places in the game which we choose to go to?

Again I go back the your gang metaphore. If a gang started hanging out in your local pub, or bar. A place you have been hanging out at all your life with your mates. Then everynight they were roudy and loud and causing a scene.

Would you just stop going and find a new pub to drink at, or stay in your house all night instead?

Because going by what your expecting us to do, it seems you would. Otherwise your a hypecrit!!!

MSecorsky · Jun 08, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

You dont seem to understand....

...how would this stop spamming?

Just because people cant re-select previously sent messages, isn't going to stop them simply re-typing the same message over and over again.

It just means they cant post as fast and you end up with disjointed spams. But there not suddenly going to think "oh damn, I cant re-select my previous comments anymore... well thats my spamming days over"! They will just re-type them out in short text.

Guess what... if you type your message once every 10 or 15 seconds, that's a greatly reduced amount from the crap we see today.

Quote:

I dont want to spend 8 hours at work typing continually only to come home to have to sit there re-typing stuff over and over again. Thats one reason I dont really enjoy trying to sell items, because you spend an hour in an outpost just retyping the same message over and over and over again.

Lets say im trying to find a hard mode team, and because virtually no one is HMing I cant. I go into one outpost and type "Nuker LFG hard mode" and no one replies. I then want to move onto the next town or district and quickly re-select what I just wrote, so I can see if anyone responds. If they dont I move onto the next one, and the next one and the next.

Use the Party window. You cover all districts in the town at once. If you change towns, use the Party window there. Simple.

Quote:

I dont want to have to re-type a LFG message every single time.

You don't.

Quote:

1) This wouldnt stop spamming.
2) As ive said, its removing a perfectly decent piece of funcationality to try and stop spamming, but all it does it punishes the people who need it and use it correctly.
3) I bet once it was removed, you would soon notice after just a few weeks and wish it was back.

1. It would go a long way towards reducing it.
2. It's a minor functionality that causes more problems than it's worth.
3. No I wouldn't.

Quote:

Again.... it doesnt matter what filters, or funcationality you add or remove, or whether we add an auction house. Spammers will always get around changes you make to the programme, and they will always want to spam to get your attention.

The only thing that will stop them, which they cant avoid, cant get around, and get ignore, is if their caught doing it. If a MOD is in a city when they do it!

But because Anet isnt going to invest money and time in paying MODS to stand around in cities to police/parent us, then nothing will change.

Unless the attitude of players changes, spamming wont go away. Its not a problem with the software, its a problem with the mentality of the players and how they use the software.

Dont blame the software because the users abuse it!

Yet just two simple changes would reduce the spamming to a level where it wouldn't be problematic, but still allow people to hawk their wares. It's a win/win.

1. Remove the up/down arrow functionality to spam text
2. Increase the party message area to at least 80 characters and allow one user to have up to 5 distinct messages in the party window.